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	<title>Comments on: marriage and ordination</title>
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	<link>http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/marriage-and-ordination/1787</link>
	<description>Worship that works - spirituality that connects</description>
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		<title>By: Lucia Maria</title>
		<link>http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/marriage-and-ordination/1787/comment-page-1#comment-2582</link>
		<dc:creator>Lucia Maria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:31:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=1787#comment-2582</guid>
		<description>Hi,

For a history of clerical celibacy (no wife)  and continence (living with a wife, but abstaining from sex) have a look at this document: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_chisto_en.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Priestly celibacy in patristics and in the history of the Church&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,</p>
<p>For a history of clerical celibacy (no wife)  and continence (living with a wife, but abstaining from sex) have a look at this document: <a href="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_chisto_en.html" rel="nofollow">Priestly celibacy in patristics and in the history of the Church</a></p>
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		<title>By: TerenceWeldon</title>
		<link>http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/marriage-and-ordination/1787/comment-page-1#comment-2468</link>
		<dc:creator>TerenceWeldon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=1787#comment-2468</guid>
		<description>This question has been bothering me since I first read it last month, since I was not aware of any evidence that ordination had NOT been allowed, but equally had no evidence that such ordinations had ever taken place.  At the time, I promised to report back if I ever found an answer, and now think I have done.
John Boswell, in &quot;Same-sex unions in pre-modern Europe&quot; includes an extensive discussion on the nature of nuptial blessing of marriage at the time, pointing out that for early Christians, church blessing of couples&#039; relationships was irrelevant.

He goes on to discuss several writers who observe that a a church blessing for marriage was only required of priests. For example (quoting Korbinian Ritzer);

&quot;Indeed, the most learned authority on the subject argued forcefully that for the first thousand years Christianity required nuptial blessings only for priests; for the laity, an ecclesiastical ceremony was an honour, only permitted to those being married (to their own class) for the first time. &quot;

If priests getting married were required to do so in church, surely that can be taken that some were indeed getting married after ordination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This question has been bothering me since I first read it last month, since I was not aware of any evidence that ordination had NOT been allowed, but equally had no evidence that such ordinations had ever taken place.  At the time, I promised to report back if I ever found an answer, and now think I have done.<br />
John Boswell, in &#8220;Same-sex unions in pre-modern Europe&#8221; includes an extensive discussion on the nature of nuptial blessing of marriage at the time, pointing out that for early Christians, church blessing of couples&#8217; relationships was irrelevant.</p>
<p>He goes on to discuss several writers who observe that a a church blessing for marriage was only required of priests. For example (quoting Korbinian Ritzer);</p>
<p>&#8220;Indeed, the most learned authority on the subject argued forcefully that for the first thousand years Christianity required nuptial blessings only for priests; for the laity, an ecclesiastical ceremony was an honour, only permitted to those being married (to their own class) for the first time. &#8221;</p>
<p>If priests getting married were required to do so in church, surely that can be taken that some were indeed getting married after ordination.</p>
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		<title>By: Göran Koch-Swahne</title>
		<link>http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/marriage-and-ordination/1787/comment-page-1#comment-2119</link>
		<dc:creator>Göran Koch-Swahne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 08:04:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=1787#comment-2119</guid>
		<description>As I mentioned above it was Lateran II in 1139 which proclaimed Mandatory Celibacy, which doesn&#039;t actually mean Abstinence, but was part of an Ideology of Abstinces in Hellenism, that is Gnosticism, Neo Platonism: Water (for Hygiene), Food... et c. Sex comes last. 

This was very difficult to get accepted. In at least the Swedish (Sweden/Finland) and Icelandic Church Provinces it could never be enforced. Mandatory Celibacy was to contrary to the customs of all lands. 

Inheritance was on a more basic level than the Diocese. Diocese were often the priviliege of the local Princely families, but not inhereted, the way local Parishes and later Canonicates were.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I mentioned above it was Lateran II in 1139 which proclaimed Mandatory Celibacy, which doesn&#8217;t actually mean Abstinence, but was part of an Ideology of Abstinces in Hellenism, that is Gnosticism, Neo Platonism: Water (for Hygiene), Food&#8230; et c. Sex comes last. </p>
<p>This was very difficult to get accepted. In at least the Swedish (Sweden/Finland) and Icelandic Church Provinces it could never be enforced. Mandatory Celibacy was to contrary to the customs of all lands. </p>
<p>Inheritance was on a more basic level than the Diocese. Diocese were often the priviliege of the local Princely families, but not inhereted, the way local Parishes and later Canonicates were.</p>
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		<title>By: David &#124;Dah•veed&#124;</title>
		<link>http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/marriage-and-ordination/1787/comment-page-1#comment-2116</link>
		<dc:creator>David &#124;Dah•veed&#124;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 03:40:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=1787#comment-2116</guid>
		<description>I think that Lora has a hint that such a rule existed anciently forbidding marriage after ordination in her reference to Phillip Melancthon, the Augsburg Confession and the Apology of the Augsburg Confession; 
&lt;i&gt;“The ancient canons do not ban marriage. Neither do they dissolve marriages that have been contracted, &lt;b&gt;even though they remove from clerical office those who contracted marriage during their ministry.&lt;/b&gt; At those times, this dismissal was an act of kindness.”&lt;/i&gt; (emphasis mine)
That is pretty clear language that clerics were removed from ministry if they entered into marriage during their ministry. If they were a cleric in ministry they were ordained. If they were removed because they contracted a marriage after ordination it strongly implies a rule prohibiting such conduct.

Separately, there appears to be confusion regarding Latin Rite Roman priests and celibacy. There are two types of Latin Rite Roman priests; diocesan and religious. Only priests in religious orders make a vow of celibacy. The rules by which diocesan priests live require celibacy, but they do not make a vow of celibacy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that Lora has a hint that such a rule existed anciently forbidding marriage after ordination in her reference to Phillip Melancthon, the Augsburg Confession and the Apology of the Augsburg Confession;<br />
<i>“The ancient canons do not ban marriage. Neither do they dissolve marriages that have been contracted, <b>even though they remove from clerical office those who contracted marriage during their ministry.</b> At those times, this dismissal was an act of kindness.”</i> (emphasis mine)<br />
That is pretty clear language that clerics were removed from ministry if they entered into marriage during their ministry. If they were a cleric in ministry they were ordained. If they were removed because they contracted a marriage after ordination it strongly implies a rule prohibiting such conduct.</p>
<p>Separately, there appears to be confusion regarding Latin Rite Roman priests and celibacy. There are two types of Latin Rite Roman priests; diocesan and religious. Only priests in religious orders make a vow of celibacy. The rules by which diocesan priests live require celibacy, but they do not make a vow of celibacy.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/marriage-and-ordination/1787/comment-page-1#comment-2115</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 02:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=1787#comment-2115</guid>
		<description>My reflection upon liturgically praying the Psalms is that all of creation, that means all of creation, is eligible for full sanctification. 

There is an old, confluence of Gnostic, Manichean and patriarchal bias in the Catholic tradition against women and sex. If the tradition is in error in some things, then it is our responsibility to correct it, to act in charity, and serve justice, rather than serve rules.

This is a matter of discernment, not simply a legalistic, juridical matter of stare decisis among canon lawyers. 

Sorry I can&#039;t add to the academic, canon law discussion. There is something to be said for the Orthodox adage that theology is best done on one&#039;s knees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My reflection upon liturgically praying the Psalms is that all of creation, that means all of creation, is eligible for full sanctification. </p>
<p>There is an old, confluence of Gnostic, Manichean and patriarchal bias in the Catholic tradition against women and sex. If the tradition is in error in some things, then it is our responsibility to correct it, to act in charity, and serve justice, rather than serve rules.</p>
<p>This is a matter of discernment, not simply a legalistic, juridical matter of stare decisis among canon lawyers. </p>
<p>Sorry I can&#8217;t add to the academic, canon law discussion. There is something to be said for the Orthodox adage that theology is best done on one&#8217;s knees.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Homstad</title>
		<link>http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/marriage-and-ordination/1787/comment-page-1#comment-2107</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Homstad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 17:20:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=1787#comment-2107</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry I can&#039;t cite another source, but I seem to recall reading that the driving force for mandatory celibacy in the Western Church was to break the back of the common inheritance laws so as to stymie any potential dynasty plans of bishops handing on their diocese as an &quot;inheritance&quot; to their son(s).  If celibacy is demanded in church law, then any children sired by a priest are by definition &quot;bastard&quot; and thus unable to inherit anything at all.  

Quite heavy handed, but it seems to have worked after a fashion.  However, it doesn&#039;t explain the 500 year success of the Lutheran, Anglican and Reformed traditions who have not had dynasty problems with their married priests and bishops.  So, maybe it wasn&#039;t such a good idea in the first place?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry I can&#8217;t cite another source, but I seem to recall reading that the driving force for mandatory celibacy in the Western Church was to break the back of the common inheritance laws so as to stymie any potential dynasty plans of bishops handing on their diocese as an &#8220;inheritance&#8221; to their son(s).  If celibacy is demanded in church law, then any children sired by a priest are by definition &#8220;bastard&#8221; and thus unable to inherit anything at all.  </p>
<p>Quite heavy handed, but it seems to have worked after a fashion.  However, it doesn&#8217;t explain the 500 year success of the Lutheran, Anglican and Reformed traditions who have not had dynasty problems with their married priests and bishops.  So, maybe it wasn&#8217;t such a good idea in the first place?</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Bohlman</title>
		<link>http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/marriage-and-ordination/1787/comment-page-1#comment-2105</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Bohlman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 15:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=1787#comment-2105</guid>
		<description>It looks like you have a great site here. I will be checking back often. 
Once again, Great website, and great writing.

God Bless,
Pastor Dan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It looks like you have a great site here. I will be checking back often.<br />
Once again, Great website, and great writing.</p>
<p>God Bless,<br />
Pastor Dan</p>
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		<title>By: Vincent Murphy</title>
		<link>http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/marriage-and-ordination/1787/comment-page-1#comment-2104</link>
		<dc:creator>Vincent Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 15:14:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=1787#comment-2104</guid>
		<description>The Bible is very clear on any topic of importance for the conduct of our lives and the Church.  That which is not important is not clear.  I believe it to be wrong to create rules and regulations based upon little more than what was done by past generations of sinners and the fact that there is nothing to directly contradict such a rule in the Bible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Bible is very clear on any topic of importance for the conduct of our lives and the Church.  That which is not important is not clear.  I believe it to be wrong to create rules and regulations based upon little more than what was done by past generations of sinners and the fact that there is nothing to directly contradict such a rule in the Bible.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/marriage-and-ordination/1787/comment-page-1#comment-2103</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 14:54:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=1787#comment-2103</guid>
		<description>In my Protestant tradition the order does not matter.

There are a few cases in which a presbyter in my tradition lost his wife, either through death or divorce, and then married a member of the church he was serving.

I think this was in bad taste. I&#039;m not sure how faithfully you can serve a community pastorally while &quot;on the prowl.&quot; Not to mention the strange dynamics with the new pastor&#039;s wife. Perhaps this could be a reason for the rule?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my Protestant tradition the order does not matter.</p>
<p>There are a few cases in which a presbyter in my tradition lost his wife, either through death or divorce, and then married a member of the church he was serving.</p>
<p>I think this was in bad taste. I&#8217;m not sure how faithfully you can serve a community pastorally while &#8220;on the prowl.&#8221; Not to mention the strange dynamics with the new pastor&#8217;s wife. Perhaps this could be a reason for the rule?</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/marriage-and-ordination/1787/comment-page-1#comment-2101</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 12:23:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=1787#comment-2101</guid>
		<description>Great topic!

In the Orthodox Church there is a tradition of obstaining from sex before the celebration of liturgy.  We often joke that is why we do not have daily liturgy.  I am sure this is found in some liturgical book but I cannot lay my hands on it right now.

There is some evidence that in the Oriental Church one can marry after ordination to deacon but before priest and in some cases priests have been allowed to remarry if their wife dies and he has small children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great topic!</p>
<p>In the Orthodox Church there is a tradition of obstaining from sex before the celebration of liturgy.  We often joke that is why we do not have daily liturgy.  I am sure this is found in some liturgical book but I cannot lay my hands on it right now.</p>
<p>There is some evidence that in the Oriental Church one can marry after ordination to deacon but before priest and in some cases priests have been allowed to remarry if their wife dies and he has small children.</p>
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		<title>By: Eva Ulian</title>
		<link>http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/marriage-and-ordination/1787/comment-page-1#comment-2100</link>
		<dc:creator>Eva Ulian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 10:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=1787#comment-2100</guid>
		<description>Celibacy for Catholic priests after ordination was a rule placed upon the clergy by an early pope and his council but cannot off hand remember which. I believe it was done so because Saint Paul says that although the married state is good, the single one is better.  A  lot of Catholic Priests welcome this freedom- that is of not being &quot;hen pecked&quot;.  Sorry for being flippant, but I&#039;ve heard it so often, to me it has become a reality.

There was never any word as far as I know in the Catholic Church of not having sex before partaking of sacraments, which would have been considered probably quite ridiculous as it&#039;s in the bible to &quot;go and multiply&quot;. There was a time that we could not eat anything for 24 hours before receiving Communion but that became 1 hour and nowadays, not sure if anyone really remembers. Well, there you have it, my thoughts on the matter, for what they are worth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Celibacy for Catholic priests after ordination was a rule placed upon the clergy by an early pope and his council but cannot off hand remember which. I believe it was done so because Saint Paul says that although the married state is good, the single one is better.  A  lot of Catholic Priests welcome this freedom- that is of not being &#8220;hen pecked&#8221;.  Sorry for being flippant, but I&#8217;ve heard it so often, to me it has become a reality.</p>
<p>There was never any word as far as I know in the Catholic Church of not having sex before partaking of sacraments, which would have been considered probably quite ridiculous as it&#8217;s in the bible to &#8220;go and multiply&#8221;. There was a time that we could not eat anything for 24 hours before receiving Communion but that became 1 hour and nowadays, not sure if anyone really remembers. Well, there you have it, my thoughts on the matter, for what they are worth.</p>
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		<title>By: Göran Koch-Swahne</title>
		<link>http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/marriage-and-ordination/1787/comment-page-1#comment-2096</link>
		<dc:creator>Göran Koch-Swahne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 08:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=1787#comment-2096</guid>
		<description>To Sue I say just: Petrine and Pauline exemptions...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Sue I say just: Petrine and Pauline exemptions&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Göran Koch-Swahne</title>
		<link>http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/marriage-and-ordination/1787/comment-page-1#comment-2095</link>
		<dc:creator>Göran Koch-Swahne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 08:16:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=1787#comment-2095</guid>
		<description>In Iceland it&#039;s the same story. The last Roman Bishop fell in battle around 1550 accompanied by his 4 sons...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Iceland it&#8217;s the same story. The last Roman Bishop fell in battle around 1550 accompanied by his 4 sons&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Göran Koch-Swahne</title>
		<link>http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/marriage-and-ordination/1787/comment-page-1#comment-2094</link>
		<dc:creator>Göran Koch-Swahne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 08:14:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=1787#comment-2094</guid>
		<description>In Sweden Mandatory Celibacy as per Lateran III 1139 was never on. The Cardinal of Sabina tried in 1248, but the Archbishop requested and obtined a &quot;dispensation&quot; for Uppsala Arch-Diocese in 1258 and for the whole Province (Sweden and Finland) in 1259.

Our ancient laws (14th century) stipulate about the inheritance of Bishops...

In the 1430es there was even a Bishop divorced and remarried (severally). In Åbo Diocese, however, continental mores seem to have manifested themselves in that various Bishops (all nephews and Uncles) required monies to &quot;dispensate&quot; Priests&#039; marriages...

In 1537 (?) the first Lutheran Arch-Bishop Laurentius Petri Nericius ordered Priests to make Spouses of their Wives...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Sweden Mandatory Celibacy as per Lateran III 1139 was never on. The Cardinal of Sabina tried in 1248, but the Archbishop requested and obtined a &#8220;dispensation&#8221; for Uppsala Arch-Diocese in 1258 and for the whole Province (Sweden and Finland) in 1259.</p>
<p>Our ancient laws (14th century) stipulate about the inheritance of Bishops&#8230;</p>
<p>In the 1430es there was even a Bishop divorced and remarried (severally). In Åbo Diocese, however, continental mores seem to have manifested themselves in that various Bishops (all nephews and Uncles) required monies to &#8220;dispensate&#8221; Priests&#8217; marriages&#8230;</p>
<p>In 1537 (?) the first Lutheran Arch-Bishop Laurentius Petri Nericius ordered Priests to make Spouses of their Wives&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: TerenceWeldon</title>
		<link>http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/marriage-and-ordination/1787/comment-page-1#comment-2093</link>
		<dc:creator>TerenceWeldon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 08:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=1787#comment-2093</guid>
		<description>An intriguing question, this. Lora is quite right: celibacy did not become compulsory for priests until the 11th or 12th century - but there was increasing expectation and pressure for celibacy bfore that. Certainly the tradition of celibacy does not go back right to the very beginning.

But that doesn&#039;t answer the question: was there a distinction in the earliest church between ordination after marriage or before it? I have no hard answers, but I will share two observations from my reading.  

First, although I have often come across the observation of the rule applying to the Eastern Church, I have never seen even a mention of it for the West. This would seem to suggest that there was no such rule.

Second,in the very earliest church, there cannot have been a ban on marriage after ordination, for the simple reason that there was no practice of formal ordination.  The institution of the priesthood as a distinct class within the church did not evolve until some time after deacons, bishops and finally presbyters - who became the priests, I think in about the 4th C.
On the other hand, I have never seen any reference to when the distinction of the order began in the Eastern Church - and in the very earliest years, there was not the sharp contrast between East and West that emerged after the division of the Empire. 

The question intrigues me.  I have a strong interest in the whole question of compulsory celibacy. If I learn anything in my further reading, I will let you know.,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An intriguing question, this. Lora is quite right: celibacy did not become compulsory for priests until the 11th or 12th century &#8211; but there was increasing expectation and pressure for celibacy bfore that. Certainly the tradition of celibacy does not go back right to the very beginning.</p>
<p>But that doesn&#8217;t answer the question: was there a distinction in the earliest church between ordination after marriage or before it? I have no hard answers, but I will share two observations from my reading.  </p>
<p>First, although I have often come across the observation of the rule applying to the Eastern Church, I have never seen even a mention of it for the West. This would seem to suggest that there was no such rule.</p>
<p>Second,in the very earliest church, there cannot have been a ban on marriage after ordination, for the simple reason that there was no practice of formal ordination.  The institution of the priesthood as a distinct class within the church did not evolve until some time after deacons, bishops and finally presbyters &#8211; who became the priests, I think in about the 4th C.<br />
On the other hand, I have never seen any reference to when the distinction of the order began in the Eastern Church &#8211; and in the very earliest years, there was not the sharp contrast between East and West that emerged after the division of the Empire. </p>
<p>The question intrigues me.  I have a strong interest in the whole question of compulsory celibacy. If I learn anything in my further reading, I will let you know.,</p>
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